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On this episode of The David Frum Present, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning: America’ help for Ukraine is collapsing below Donald Trump’s second time period—and with it, the worldwide system of peace and safety that has protected Individuals for many years. David explains what Trump’s newest actions reveal about his motivations, and why Ukraine’s survival could now rely upon the result of the 2024 election.
Then David is joined by the previous U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now Democratic congressional candidate Bridget Brink, who served below each President Biden and President Trump. They focus on the true stakes of the warfare, the failure of the Trump administration to develop or execute a coherent Ukraine coverage, and why Brink in the end selected to resign her submit. She provides a firsthand account of life in Kyiv in the course of the early days of the full-scale invasion, the risks dealing with American diplomats in warfare zones, and the institutional breakdowns now threatening U.S. overseas coverage from inside.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Whats up, and welcome to a different episode of The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic. I’m chatting with you at the moment from the places of work of The Picton Gazette, one of many oldest constantly revealed newspapers in all of Canada. It’s Canada Day week right here in Canada, and lots of of our traditional amenities are closed. So I’m very grateful to the editors and publishers of the Gazette for making their places of work obtainable to me to report this opening dialogue.
My visitor this week will probably be Ambassador Bridget Brink, who was appointed by President Biden as ambassador to Ukraine after which served below President Trump till her resignation earlier this yr. Ambassador Brink is now working for Congress for the Democratic nomination in Michigan’s Seventh District. Our dialog was recorded earlier than she made that announcement.
Earlier than I flip to our dialog about Ukraine and the battle for independence, and in regards to the inconsistent and unfavorable perspective of the Trump administration towards Ukraine that she noticed as ambassador, I need to say just a few private phrases about what’s at stake on this Ukrainian trigger.
America has constructed, since 1945, a unprecedented system of peace and safety embracing a lot of the planet. It’s a system from which many nations profit, however Individuals too. That Individuals don’t must be taught a second language most often; that they will journey in regards to the world with a sense of safety; that once they do enterprise, they do enterprise below authorized programs which are typically impressed by the American instance; that once they journey as vacationers or college students or in any capability, they will put down a bank card, and if they’ve a dispute, have that bank card dispute adjudicated, normally below American regulation—all of these issues that we take as a right as we transfer a couple of world that’s ever extra accommodating to the American lifestyle and to American pursuits, all of that is among the prizes for the American funding in international peace and safety.
Now, that system of peace and safety acquired certainly one of its severest checks when Russia accelerated its assault on Ukraine. The warfare started in 2014 with the assault on Crimea and the occupation of Crimea. However in February of 2022, Russia made a direct lunge for the capital, Kyiv. The heroism and endurance of Ukrainian troopers beat again the Russians, and Ukraine has continued to battle for its independence to today. It is a warfare not about boundaries, however about Ukraine’s sovereign existence. The Russians and President Putin, their dictator, have made it very clear that what they’re offended by is that Ukraine imagines it has any proper to exist as an impartial nation in any respect.
As Putin has informed many individuals, together with American interviewers—together with pet American interviewers, like Tucker Carlson when Tucker Carlson interviewed Vladimir Putin—what this warfare is about from Putin’s viewpoint is that Ukraine will not be a rustic. It’s simply a part of Russia. It has no historical past. It has no language. It has no literature. It has no proper to be any type of separate individuals in any respect. It’s little Russia, in his thoughts, that should be dominated endlessly by large Russia. The Ukrainians see it in any other case, they usually have fought and struggled and died to take care of their nationwide existence.
Beneath President Biden, the president who appointed Ambassador Brink, the USA assisted Ukraine, not as totally because it ought to. It typically appears that President Biden’s coverage was to say, What does Ukraine want? Give them half, and provides it late. Tanks and airplanes and different kinds of help at all times arrived too little quantities and too gradual in time to show the tide of warfare when the warfare was able to be turned, particularly in the summertime of [20]23. It typically appeared that there was an absence of urgency within the Biden administration, that they by no means took it critically, that November ’24 can be, amongst different issues, a referendum on Ukraine’s survival, and that if there was something that was left undone by the USA as of November ’24, there was an actual probability that the following administration, which could be Donald Trump’s, would flip off the movement of help and doom Ukraine altogether. If the warfare was not received by November of 2024, it would by no means be received in any respect.
However that lack of urgency was a flaw from a usually constructive coverage. President Biden did appear to know what was at stake and did need to assist, even when it was by no means in time and by no means sufficient. However now, within the Trump presidency, we’re in a really completely different world, a world of outright hostility to Ukraine, the place Donald Trump’s aim appears to be to strain Ukraine, generally risking Ukrainian lives, generally dooming Ukrainian lives, strain Ukraine to a negotiated type of submission to Russia.
I don’t know that we now have but or ever will resolve the explanation for Donald Trump’s unusual attachment to Russia. The why query—it’s been speculated about, psychological blackmail, cronyism. It’s been speculated about endlessly. And I’ve to confess, I generally have joined in a few of the hypothesis, however I believe at all times we have to have skepticism about it. We don’t know and perhaps we’ll by no means know the why of the Trump-Russia attachment.
However we are able to see the what. We are able to see the factor. We are able to see that there’s something occurring right here that’s approach past the standard about how Individuals really feel about overseas dictators—a type of one thing that’s influencing American coverage in methods which are injurious to every kind of societies, not solely Ukraine, and that has biased American coverage towards the help of the targets of this aggressive dictatorship in Moscow.
Now we discover ourselves, actually, in a second of disaster. America has demonstrated in Iran that American energy can be utilized. This administration has confirmed that every one these op-eds and assume items and marketing campaign propaganda about Trump as a dove, as a noninterventionist had been nonsense. Trump struck Iran. Proper now, there are American Predator drones flying over Mexico. And lots of within the Trump administration, together with the vice chairman, have talked about utilizing American army pressure inside Mexico—once more, with or with out the permission of the Mexican authorities. They’re not noninterventionists. They’re not pacifists. They’re not doves. What they are are people who find themselves hostile to the Ukrainian trigger.
The Ukrainian trigger is a good trigger. It’s one which deserves respect and help from Individuals, because it has gained and deserves help from America’s allies. Ukraine has carried out a lot by itself. It has fought and struggled and defended itself, however it in all probability can not win by itself. To win, it wants assist. That assist was forthcoming—inadequately, however forthcoming—from the Biden administration, and it’s been dialed again by the Trump administration. It must be a top-of-mind situation in our nationwide dialogue at the moment.
What could be carried out to assist Ukraine? Why received’t Donald Trump do it? How can or not it’s pressured to do it? In that debate, Ambassador Brink has been and will probably be probably the most essential voices, first as a profitable and efficient ambassador, then as a robust critic of the administration she served, and now as a candidate for Congress.
So in just a few moments, my dialog with Ambassador Bridget Brink, however first: a fast break.
[Music]
Frum: Ambassador Bridget Brink, is a profession diplomat, a local of Michigan, and a graduate of Kenyon Faculty. Her service to the USA commenced in the course of the Clinton administration. She has represented the USA in Uzbekistan, Georgia, and the Slovak Republic. In between, she rose to greater and better positions and ranks on the State Division and on the Nationwide Safety Council employees.
In February 2022, as Russian columns raced towards Kyiv to seize that Ukrainian capital, and as Russian airborne troops descended on the Kyiv airport, President Biden requested Bridget Brink to function his ambassador to Ukraine, an rising warfare zone, probably the most harmful posts in all of U.S. diplomacy.
She was formally nominated in April of 2022 and has led the mission till earlier this yr. She resigned in 2025 to protest President Trump’s persistent refusal to acknowledge Russia’s accountability for the warfare Putin began.
And Ambassador Brink, thanks a lot. Welcome to The David Frum Present. Let me ask you to take us again to that second while you received the nod to serve on this historic position at this historic time. How did that occur? What was that like?
Bridget Brink: Effectively, thanks David. Thanks a lot for having me on. Effectively, I bear in mind it prefer it was yesterday, however now it was greater than three years in the past. As you already know, or in all probability know, we now have a protracted course of to deliver new ambassadors into positions.
So I knew for some time, even earlier than the warfare began, that I used to be the president’s candidate and needed to undergo the formal affirmation course of. And when the warfare began, I received a name. And I used to be requested, Are you continue to on this submit? As a result of we expect we could have to shut the embassy. We don’t know the place the embassy will probably be. We don’t know what’s going to occur with the warfare. What’s your place?
And I bear in mind very distinctly, I stated, No, I completely am dedicated. I believe this place is extra essential now than perhaps ever, and so preserve going. And I additionally stated we have to keep after which return, and that’s what we did.
Frum: Yeah, I need to shield us each towards the temptation that plenty of Individuals need to assume that the warfare began in February of 2022.
Brink: Sure.
Frum: The truth is, it began in 2014. However for a very long time, the preventing was localized to sure border areas between Russia—the Ukrainian territory however close to Russia. In February of ’22, we had an escalation of the warfare the place the capital itself grew to become below siege.
So when did you arrive in Kyiv?
Brink: I arrived in Kyiv on the finish of Could—Could 29, 2022—and I got here in by land. At the moment, we had been driving, and I got here in; I had a chargé [d’affaires] that I used to be changing. We hadn’t had a confirmed ambassador in Ukraine for over three years. And I keep in mind that very distinctly as a result of it was me and 9 different diplomats.
That’s who returned again to assist reestablish and reopen the embassy. And after I received there—in fact, embassies, once they shut, they’re taken down in a approach to shield our nationwide safety. So areas which are delicate or issues which are delicate are eliminated or destroyed. And so once we received to the embassy, we actually had nothing that you may plug into the wall.
So if you concentrate on What do you want while you’re working? properly, you want your laptop, and also you want your varied issues that enable you do your job, and due to a closure, that didn’t exist. So this was the surprising, I’d say, problem that we had within the first few days and weeks. As a result of not solely had been we coming again right into a warfare zone, not solely did we not on the time have any air protection (as a result of it was the early a part of the warfare, it was very unsure)—we additionally didn’t have a functioning, working embassy. And that, I’ve to say, was an enormous and heavy raise as a result of normally while you reopen an embassy, you reopen it in circumstances of peace, not in circumstances of warfare. However right here we had been, making an attempt to do this in circumstances of warfare.
Frum: The place did you sleep and eat?
Brink: So within the first three months, I slept within the embassy. So I truly was given a room within the Marine home. So we didn’t have Marines at the moment. Marines normally shield embassies abroad. Me—and it’s a small seven, six or seven rooms—and so I had a room similar to all people else’s room within the Marine home, no matter Marines stay in. I believe it’s now referred to as, like, the “ambassador’s room.”
And I slept and ate on the embassy. We have now a small cafeteria, and I ate there. And, in truth, I didn’t need to depart, as a result of after three months, we moved to a different location—as a result of we had been getting larger as I pushed very onerous to deliver extra individuals again. And I didn’t need to transfer, as a result of actually from the time I opened my eyes within the morning till the time I closed them, I used to be working.
And I didn’t need to take the time that I wanted to do any type of commuting forwards and backwards to the embassy. And so I believe I used to be the final one to depart the embassy, purely due to that—not as a result of I didn’t need to go and normalize, however as a result of I anxious it could, like, take treasured seconds and minutes off of what we wanted to do the job.
And as I informed all people, we’re working on the velocity of warfare. However lastly, I used to be satisfied: Like, no, it’s essential. It’s essential that the ambassador transfer, for example. And if we had been going to assist the Ukrainians battle this battle, we wanted, additionally, to present individuals somewhat little bit of means to have somewhat downtime and carry out. And that was completely right, and that’s what I attempted to do.
Your first query about Why did I do that job? It’s as a result of I consider this was an important, or no less than probably the most essential diplomatic jobs on the planet for the USA. And as I believe that we, as the USA, ought to lead and lead with our values and our pursuits, I used to be so honored to be requested to do that job.
It was like an honor of a lifetime—actually, sincerely an honor of a lifetime to do it, though it was so difficult and onerous each single minute of each single day.
Frum: Did the embassy ever come below fireplace, intentional or purportedly unintentional?
Brink: I imply, right here’s the problem we confronted: Within the first yr that we had been there—that is previous to receiving any Patriot programs or different forms of superior American air-defense programs—there actually was not air protection. And so for the primary year-plus, I believe, that I used to be there, we had been—everybody within the nation was, however we had been, because the American illustration—in a state of affairs the place we didn’t have the power to guard individuals.
So when the air alerts went off, we needed to guarantee that we had all people in a spot that was essentially the most secure doable, and that was underground. So many occasions we had conditions the place missiles—or at the moment within the first yr, it was missiles largely—missiles would hit actually near wherever we had been, and we had shrapnel hit a constructing, for instance, that we had been in.
I went, truly, with the USAID administrator—this was a bit later, truly, within the warfare, however—to Odessa. We had a gathering in a constructing sooner or later, after which it was attacked and bombed the following day and destroyed. After which that was 12 hours or much less later. After which, in fact, I ultimately was in a position to transfer into my residence, and we discovered some shrapnel missile fragments within the yard of the residence. And yeah, so the missiles after which the drones come down all over the place. After which, in fact, when air protection goes as much as counter that, there’s plenty of exercise. It’s very dynamic within the air, and also you gotta be someplace the place you could be protected.
Frum: And issues fall again to earth. Pleasant fireplace additionally falls again to Earth.
Brink: Finally every little thing falls again to earth. Yeah, gravity works.
Frum: So that you talked about going to Odessa. Now, I believe most individuals watching this will probably be conscious that Ukraine is a big nation. They could not perceive how giant it’s when it comes to hours and that there isn’t a air journey. Anytime you went wherever, you needed to go by land, and with all of the dangers.
So inform: How did you progress in regards to the nation, and what sort of safety did you have got as you probably did?
Brink: Effectively, in fact, stepping into and overseas—and I did journey in and overseas quite a bit to return to Washington to make the case on the hill or with the administration—to do every little thing I might to get across the nation,
I used to be the largest proponent to push for means and permission, as a result of a few of this was managed initially by Washington, to maneuver across the nation in order that we might do actually essential jobs to implement the president’s coverage and the administration’s coverage. That features outreach to individuals, together with individuals which are affected by the warfare, however to additionally oversee and examine on weapons and different help that we’re giving to Ukraine. And third, to supply recommendation and help in varied ways in which we do diplomatically or militarily. So we did all of that—most of that—by practice, and the explanation was it was essentially the most environment friendly. The Ukrainian practice system is superb.
I believe they’ve saved their trains on time all through the warfare; the trains had been used to evacuate individuals at first of the warfare. They’re used to move individuals. Now they’re used to move many alternative issues, in all probability. I wouldn’t need to go into element, however they’re a really efficient a part of the warfare effort.
And so I relied on that very same factor on the Odessa journey we had, perhaps, early on. I believe this was in July. Once more, this can be a very early a part of the warfare, so it was fairly—you already know, these early moments are actually important to type of what we do. And I’m a giant believer in utilizing American energy properly and utilizing it to form the atmosphere and form occasions and that diplomats should not individuals who sit again and watch what’s occurring, however truly form towards a aim that matches our pursuits and our values.
So in July, we had been making an attempt onerous to assist get—or preserve the economic system alive, as a result of Ukraine’s economic system is de facto depending on exports. And the world can also be depending on grain to feed individuals, particularly in food-scarce nations.
And so Ukrainian grain, we had been making an attempt to determine methods to assist get it out. And certainly one of them was via the Black Sea ports. However they’d been shut down, successfully, by Russian assaults. And so I labored with the Ukrainians and the UN and the G7 companions, and we got here up with an concept to go to Odessa and have a G7—that’s the Group of seven; that’s the primary group that helps Ukraine diplomatically—have a G7 assembly down in Odessa to get this Black Sea Grain Initiative going. It was an settlement that might be with the UN and Russia, so I traveled down there. Nevertheless it was a really onerous resolution to make.
However we had been on our approach down, and the practice stopped in the midst of the evening.
And I in all probability had a gaggle of—I don’t know what number of—perhaps 20 individuals, together with the safety individuals who had been touring with me. And the practice stopped, and I might hear my safety man get a name within the subsequent practice cabin. I hear him simply say, Sure, sure. He comes again to me, and he says, There’s a missile directed. It’s going to land someplace close to us, someplace close by.
And we’re stopped. And I assumed, Okay. And at that time, I hoped and I prayed that my staff can be okay, and that that call had been the appropriate one. After which we waited, and that’s all you are able to do is wait. Fifteen minutes, 20 minutes glided by, and the practice began once more. After which we went down.
Frum: Let me ask you about your evaluation of the warfare, because it stands at the moment. We’re talking in the midst of June. Originally of June, Ukraine scored certainly one of its most exceptional successes on this warfare, disabling some variety of Russian strategic bombers. I don’t know the precise rely. You in all probability do.
It’s perhaps as excessive as 40. Nevertheless it’s a giant warfare with many elements. Life for the individuals of Ukraine—the 40 million individuals who stay within the nation—could be very tough. They’re making an attempt to function colleges and old-age pensions and hospitals. Give us a way of each the army and the financial state as of mid-June 2025.
Brink: Effectively, I imply, I believe one factor’s very clear, is that Putin has discovered that he can present—or fake, I’d say—that he’s prepared to barter whereas he continues to battle on the bottom and to attempt to achieve extra territory and alter info and circumstances on the bottom. I believe that’s a mistake for us to permit that.
I believe the state of affairs for the Ukrainians is: The Ukrainians proceed to battle. And I believe they may proceed to battle till they will’t in any approach, form, or kind. And so I believe that on this state of affairs, we face an ongoing, persevering with warfare, and one which dangers a better warfare by not placing extra pressure and strain on Putin to return to the desk. The Ukrainians did have a really, I’d say, profitable assault on Russian army belongings final weekend. And I believe that that was one thing that they’d—I used to be not conscious of this plan—however that’s one thing they’d, I heard, within the planning for a very long time.
However I simply need everybody to keep in mind that that is in protection [that] the Ukrainians hit army belongings. The Russians additionally, within the final week or so, have launched tons of of drones and missiles throughout the nation of Ukraine which have killed many civilians, together with youngsters. And that is occurring and has been occurring all through the warfare.
Frum: As I hearken to you converse, I hope this comes out the appropriate approach, as a result of I don’t imply this in any approach a disrespectful or querulous level. However I discover you’re arguing with plenty of issues that you’d assume no rational individual would suggest within the first place.
You’re arguing that Russia is the aggressor, not Ukraine. You might be arguing that the protection of this embattled, invaded democracy is one thing that Individuals ought to care about. You sound somewhat bit like somebody who’s been on the receiving finish of arguments with essentially the most anti-democratic, anti-social, anti-American individuals you’ll be able to probably think about over the previous variety of months. And that’s the judo pose through which you’re able to spring into motion.
Am I listening to the reverberation of six months of discussions towards individuals who would say issues like, Effectively, perhaps Ukraine’s at fault. Perhaps this isn’t essential?
Brink: Effectively, I imply, in fact, you’ve heard what the administration and what the president’s place has been, you already know, to be some type of impartial—or, yeah, like, impartial mediator.
I strongly disagree that that could be a place that’s good for U.S. curiosity. Within the small sense, and that is actually essential for Ukraine, it’s actually important that we don’t enable Putin as an aggressor to only change borders by pressure, as a result of this units a horrible precedent right here. It units a horrible precedent elsewhere world wide.
However I believe what I need to say is that, extra strategically, I believe Putin’s targets are a lot larger. I don’t assume it’s simply Ukraine. I believe individuals who assume that, Oh, Putin will cease at Ukraine, that’s not my expertise in 28 years working on this a part of the world. Putin doesn’t cease until stopped, until given clear positioning that we and companions will oppose a particular route. I consider he’s going to maintain going. I believe it’s clear to me that he needs to reverse Ukraine’s path towards not simply the EU, which is the place this all began, but additionally to NATO, to weaken NATO, to divide Europe, and to weaken the USA.
And to me, we want a coverage that’s strategic within the sense of framing what our actions are to attain the aim, which I believe needs to be to cease Putin from being profitable on this try.
Frum: However you’ve spent plenty of time arguing issues that one would’ve thought had been settled, like this warfare is Russia’s fault, not Ukraine’s fault.
Brink: Sure. I imply, the problem within the present second—properly, perhaps two issues I’d say. One, I believe what’s in danger now could be a lot larger than simply Ukraine. I believe Ukraine is—I care very deeply. I spent three years of my life in a warfare zone making an attempt to guard my staff but additionally advance our targets of preserving Ukraine free.
However I believe much more broadly than that, what’s in danger is the peace and prosperity that we now have loved for 80 years since World Conflict II—as a result of we now have relied on some basic rules, together with, particularly: We, the USA, help democracy and freedom at house and overseas. We, the USA, consider that it’s essential to work with our buddies and allies. We, the USA, assume that we have to cease aggressors from attaining their targets and compete with China.
I believe individuals don’t perhaps give it some thought on this sense, however I take into consideration how undermining a few of these rules is dangerous. It’s dangerous for us. It’s dangerous for our kids and future generations as a result of we’re taking away a few of the basis of what has constructed our personal prosperity, what has constructed our personal success as a nation.
Frum: I suppose the place I’m going with that is: Each main battle, there are numerous, many decisions. They’re all very tough. If the questions weren’t tough, they wouldn’t be at your degree within the first place. And the best way we expect the USA authorities operates is: individuals of fine religion and unquestioned patriotism and dedication to shared values, coping with onerous problems with what’s the appropriate approach to go, coping with un horrible uncertainty and lack of understanding and making an attempt to return to some type of steadiness.
And definitely, within the first years you had been in Ukraine, there have been lots of these discussions, and my opinion: And plenty of them went the unsuitable approach. America was late to present Ukraine the issues it wanted and the possibility to attain more-decisive features in the summertime of 2023.
Perhaps it wasn’t ever there, but when it was there, it wasn’t seized. However as I hearken to you, I hear the reverberations of one thing that feels like some type of tacky, paranoid Chilly Conflict novel—the place again house, in Washington, there are essential voices that aren’t individuals of fine religion, aren’t imbued with shared patriotic values, don’t get up for democracy and really need to see our buddies lose, not our buddies win.
Brink: Effectively, I believe the problem we now have now with—properly, what occurred with me is fairly easy, is that for 28 years, I felt very strongly that I might and I used to be in a position to supply my opinion and my recommendation about what’s the very best course for overseas coverage. In our enterprise, you generally prevail in that effort, and generally you don’t. And generally as a result of I did it for thus lengthy and labored in an space that was in an identical space, I had the power to return again to points generally after which prevail in a special administration.
For instance, after I labored earlier than in Washington, I used to be a part of the group that helped to present Ukraine—or make a suggestion that the then-President Trump, within the first administration, gave weapons to Ukraine, defensive weapons. These weapons helped to avoid wasting Kyiv. However now, coming again within the second administration, right here’s what occurred. On daily basis I awoke, and I used to be informed I could be fired, so I needs to be cautious what I say and what I do. That’s positive when it comes to: All of us serve on the pleasure of the president. That’s the best way the system works for ambassadors.
However what has occurred below an administration with President Trump with such dramatic modifications, for instance, destroying and altering establishments, like USAID or Division of Schooling or different establishments, is that what occurs with the forms is: The forms turns into not a powerful advocate of no matter is the really useful method. What we do as profession individuals is that we make suggestions after which in the end, in fact, it’s the management—it’s the elected management and the president—who decides.
In my expertise on this Trump administration, there was no house to make suggestions in the event that they conflicted with no matter was the, I believe, perceived view of the president. That’s extremely problematic. I can inform you many occasions in the course of the Biden administration, I’m certain I irritated or aggravated individuals as a result of I used to be so persistent, however I felt it was my obligation and my job in my views, and I by no means—in fact, I’d implement, as soon as a call was made, no matter was required or determined—however I by no means felt that I used to be prone to being fired or that I’d, by annoying individuals, was going to be problematic for me personally.
And I consider sincerely that—though, once more, I’m certain in lots of occasions, I assumed we needs to be doing one thing else; you don’t get to win each argument—however what you want is a structured coverage method in an effort to make the case, and so you’ll be able to decide, and so you’ll be able to know the info.
I would like that as ambassador. The president wants that as president, and that’s what doesn’t exist. Furthermore, this worry makes individuals not need to give their opinion, and so in that interval, I stated my view was that that is an important diplomatic job on the planet. I’ve gotta do it in a approach the place I’m not fearful. I’ve to do it in one of the best ways that I can. After which after I couldn’t, that’s why I left.
Frum: Can I press you to be extra particular? Who had the job of advising you that you just could be fired?
Brink: Effectively, I’d say that is extra the profession people which are actually, I believe, pulling their punches and scared.
Frum: To whom do you report as ambassador to Ukraine? I imply, in the end, the secretary of state, however who’s your rapid report? To whom do you deal with your cables while you ship them house?
Brink: Effectively, you report back to the secretary of state, and also you report back to your chain of command, which fits via the secretary of state after which to the White Home. However your day-to-day interactions are, in lots of instances, with profession officers who’re in very senior positions within the division.
Frum: Undersecretaries and so forth. And so is that the one that would say, You could be fired for those who say this factor in your cable?
Brink: Oh, it was many individuals. It was individuals in Washington. It was individuals on my staff. It was many individuals.
Frum: Did you discuss to—I imply, Secretary Rubio, who was as soon as a buddy of Ukraine, as soon as an advocate of conventional American management, and who appears to be making his personal calculations, did he ever talk to you, You’re going too far. You’re at risk?
Brink: No, he didn’t.
Frum: Wasn’t that his job?
Brink: Effectively, I don’t know if that was true or not. I believe plenty of it, I imply, I heard and revered. I at all times need to hear divergent views. And I heard that, however it didn’t change what I did. I nonetheless believed that I needed to do it a sure approach. And I need to hear when individuals assume—I would like my advisers or I would like individuals in Washington to present me a steer on which approach to go. And I need to preserve—as an individual of the profession service, you’ll be able to’t step out and have your individual coverage. It’s a must to preserve throughout the coverage strains.
However on the similar time, it was very onerous to have a coverage that had been very clear about who’s accountable—who’s accountable, what’s occurring on the bottom that youngsters are being killed, that persons are shedding their lives and their properties, and that is occurring at the moment, proper now—and never be capable of talk about that publicly. Nevertheless it was my job to proceed to attempt.
In order that didn’t deter me from making an attempt to do the job, however it made it—it actually underscores to me what worries me. As a result of having establishments which are robust, they should execute coverage as determined by the president. However you want establishments that may supply recommendation and steerage in order that the president could make the very best resolution. And that could be a construction that exists and has existed in each administration. And a few should not so nice and a few are higher, however there’s at all times been the construction.
Frum: That’s assuming that the president needs to make selections in the very best curiosity of the nation, which means this nation. Typically you’ll have a president who needs to make the choices in the very best curiosity of another nation, after which you have got an actual drawback.
However let me ask you: If there have been somebody in your sneakers however one stage, one practice automobile, again in her profession and was contemplating the following step on the practice automobile, how would you advise that individual one practice automobile again to consider service to this president and this administration? You’re an individual of regular American patriotism. You’re being invited to do one thing for this administration. We’ve seen the way it has sucked the soul out of a few of the individuals who had these, just like the secretary of state, as soon as a standard American. How would you advise them to consider whether or not it’s clever or to not serve, or whether or not they need to wait for one more second?
Brink: Effectively, what I’ve at all times informed individuals, now and earlier than—as a result of I’ve needed to mentor and lead plenty of youthful officers, and I’ve had myself improbable mentors and leaders above me who’ve actually formed me and helped me—is that our job is to present the very best recommendation and to battle very onerous to relay that recommendation in one of the best ways doable to our elected management as profession individuals, and that if, on the finish of the day, you are feeling you’ll be able to’t execute the coverage that has been determined, you have got some choices.
The primary choice is: There’s plenty of locations on the earth which you can serve, and you’ll go, in all probability, discover someplace or one thing that aligns with your individual values. You are able to do that. Second choice: You may go into our coaching cadre, which is de facto essential to coach the diplomats of the long run. And I believe and hope these diplomats will probably be very lively, as a result of I believe this is essential. We’re the frontline of freedom, as diplomats, within the space of Europe through which I labored.
After which the third is you’ll be able to resolve that your conscience doesn’t let you execute, and you’ll resign. And I at all times stated it’s essential to work and do every little thing doable to serve our nation and do the very best which you can. However for those who come to that time, it’s a must to make that call. And I believed, and I’ve at all times stated, it is best to work as if it’s your final day in authorities and take into consideration every little thing you do, particularly in locations which are such excessive stakes as Ukraine, as for those who’re not going to have a job tomorrow.
It’s actually onerous to do this, however that’s my recommendation.
Frum: Let me interrupt you there simply to say: What you’re describing is a pondering course of that one might need had in January of 2025, when it was unsure what the second Trump administration would appear like. In June of 2025, we all know precisely what the second Trump administration goes to appear like.
So if you’re somebody who’s provided to be ambassador to one of many nations that Trump doesn’t like or one of many nations that Trump likes quite a bit, you already know what it’s going to be. You don’t have to do this three-part evaluation you simply described. You realize the reply already. So understanding the reply of what this administration is like, how do you advise then? As a result of clearly, the enterprise of presidency must be carried on. If somebody is obtainable a job as ambassador to Ukraine, how ought to they consider that?
Brink: I believe that must be a person resolution. I believe being ambassador is one factor. You’re the general public face of the coverage, and so you actually need to make that call individually. I believe for the employees and the youthful officers, it’s terribly essential that we now have this profession service, and it’s terribly essential that they serve and supply the data and proposals and lively diplomacy that makes us just like the tip of the spear of our authorities abroad. So I simply assume that must be a call of people, they usually need to make it with their very own conscience.
Frum: Effectively, let me ask you this fashion: When and if President Trump appoints new individuals to run Ukraine coverage, he’s received a particular consultant who’s in command of negotiating, who appears very in thrall to the Russian viewpoint, whose son is working a crypto enterprise that’s getting cash from God is aware of who and God is aware of the place. How will we as residents consider the people who find themselves making these insurance policies supposedly within the curiosity, in title of the USA?
Brink: I believe it’s a mistake to not depend on individuals with experience within the space. I believe it’s a giant mistake, particularly in Russia. Putin has a bigger strategic plan, which could be very harmful to the USA, and we ignore that plan at our peril.
And though he operates tactically, so he could be defeated. However I believe it requires a really considerate, strategic, coordinated method, and that’s one thing that within the second Trump administration, my problem had been getting recommendation to the appropriate individual, as a result of there are a selection of various people who find themselves engaged on Ukraine and on Russia coverage. And in that bifurcated approach, it was very tough to get recommendation.
And after I requested, How I greatest relay recommendation and data? I used to be informed I needed to go to a a number of variety of individuals throughout our authorities with the intention to have an effect on the coverage as a result of there wasn’t, as I stated, a coverage course of, a decision-making course of. And my drawback was: I used to be in a warfare zone.
I used to be actually busy. I didn’t have time to name particular person individuals to attempt to make the case for a particular coverage suggestion. And I believe that’s one thing that may nonetheless be put in place. However that was and is a giant a part of the issue. It’s the chaos of the coverage course of, which: I don’t know why that’s the working model, however it’s not conducive to our means to execute and implement a strategic overseas coverage that deters Russia, sends the appropriate sign to China, and advances American curiosity for Individuals right here at house.
Frum: So that you’re saying that it’s type of a secret hierarchy, the place, theoretically, the secretary of state is in cost, however, truly, the president of the Kennedy Heart is much more essential than the secretary of state to American overseas coverage.
And that’s not a hypothetical instance. That could be a really actual one.
Brink: I believe the problem I had was that I didn’t know who was—I might, in fact, discuss to some individuals throughout the administration who I assumed genuinely understood the problem of Ukraine and learn how to method it. I didn’t sense that there was a capability to tell the president in a approach that might assist us advance our coverage.
And that’s an untenable place for an envoy, an envoy in a warfare zone, an envoy has a thousand individuals to guard and ensure are secure, and that’s making an attempt to perform certainly one of our prime foreign-policy targets.
Frum: Let me ask one closing query: As you departed from Ukraine, when the Ukrainians in the summertime of 2025 look again towards the USA, the nation that gave them some if perhaps not sufficient help at first of the warfare, what do they see now? And what do they consider Individuals?
Brink: Effectively, perhaps I’ll inform you a narrative of my previous couple of days, after I was in Ukraine and met with a really senior official. It was certainly one of my final calls. Mainly, he confirmed me what he stated had been offered to the Ukrainians as a doable approach ahead when it comes to a peace negotiation.
That paper, which I received’t go into element of, included what I’d say Putin’s want record of every little thing that he needs. And he checked out me and he stated, You might be our closest strategic accomplice. That’s all he stated. And I had nothing I might say, as a result of I actually, as somebody who devoted a giant a part of my life to supporting freedom and democracy in Ukraine and within the wider European house for the good thing about Individuals, I had nothing to say both.
Frum: They really feel that the USA is misplaced to them.
Brink: I don’t assume they perceive. I don’t assume I perceive, or many people who’re specialists and lengthy patriots and public servants perceive.
Frum: Is it that we don’t perceive, or that we do perceive and our hearts can’t settle for the reply?
Brink: I believe it’s a special administration, and it’s a menace to our future, and that’s why I’ve come out. That’s why I left. That’s why I’m talking publicly. I believe it’s dangerous for America to be the place we’re. It’s not who we’re. And I simply—we now have to be on the appropriate aspect of historical past. There are only a few pivotal moments in historical past. And as somebody who has now carried out this for 28 years, I believe it’s important that we stand on the appropriate aspect.
Frum: Ambassador Brink, thanks a lot in your time at the moment. Good luck with the ebook. I look ahead a lot to studying it as you’re employed on it. And good luck to—I do know you have got some essential private selections to make and profession selections to make about what comes subsequent for you. And we’re all watching these with eager curiosity, and all of us hope that your service to the USA has not ended and that the USA that you just believed in has not ended both.
Brink: I don’t assume it has. I’m certain it hasn’t. Thanks. Thanks, David.
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Frum: Thanks a lot to Ambassador Bridget Brink for speaking to me for this version of The David Frum Present. Due to the editors and publishers of The Picton Gazette for his or her beneficiant hospitality on this Canada Day week, when a lot in Picton is closed.
In case you are having fun with this podcast, I hope you’ll share it with buddies, particularly this episode, which is so pressing about Ukraine’s survival. And I hope you’ll like and subscribe, each the video type of the podcast and any audio kind that you just like and like.
I stay up for chatting with you subsequent week for one more episode of The David Frum Present.
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
